When Vince Gilligan dreamed up the Apple TV show Pluribus, he envisaged just one actor for its lead: Rhea Seehorn. After working together on his Breaking Bad follow-up show Better Call Saul, so taken was Gilligan with Seehorn’s abilities that he dug in his heels when shopping his latest invention — a show about a mind-melding pandemic and Carol Sturka, the romantasy novelist who finds herself bizarrely immune and excluded. It had to be Seehorn, no matter what. And boy, did Gilligan’s certainty pay off. The show is currently sitting on 18 Emmy nominations, with Seehorn herself already the winner of Critics’ Choice and Golden Globe Awards and an Actor Award nominee.
On the day we meet at a West Hollywood hotel where Seehorn is later set to do a Q&A event, a line has formed hours in advance, with fans already jostling for a glimpse of the Pluribus star. When I tell Seehorn this, she’s genuinely surprised and delighted, but immediately points out that “it takes a giant village” and credits Gilligan, her co-stars and the inimitable crew. This is a classic Seehorn response to personal accolades it seems, given that when we spoke on the phone the morning of the Emmy nominations announcement, her tearful reaction was all about her coworkers and fellow nominees, including Karolina Wydra, who plays Carol’s confidant Zosia, Miriam Shor, in the role of Carol’s wife Helen, Jeff Hiller as Larry, and Carlos-Manuel Vesga as Manousos, one of a dozen people in the world who, like Carol, remains unaffected.
Pluribus blends grief, absurdity and deep human truths, as Carol does battle with not only the hive-minded ‘others’ who suddenly share all the world’s knowledge and memories, but also with her own isolation. As her rage and loneliness is met with endlessly upbeat and helpful suggestions from the group-think population, the metaphors become legion. Given that, of course, Reddit is positively alive with Pluribus discussions: Surely Gilligan must be referencing AI and its bland, ever-cheerful regurgitation of all it’s been fed? This had to have been inspired by the pandemic? But in truth, neither of these things sparked the idea in Gilligan’s mind. Why? Because they hadn’t happened yet when he wrote it.
So, with the Season 2 writers’ room underway, what will Gilligan’s weirdly-accurate crystal ball come up with next?
At the end of Season 1, Carol learns that the ‘others’ have got hold of her DNA via the eggs she froze during more hopeful times. And that is all they need to create a new viral strain that will ‘convert’ her to the hive mind — something they believe will constitute a happy ending. Of course, Carol does not take this lying down, and the last time we saw her in the Season 1 finale, she had just ordered up an atom bomb delivery. But can she really end it all like this?
In the following interview, Seehorn takes us deep into the world of the show, discussing life on the Albuquerque set (the same spot that birthed Better call Saul), whether Carol really will nuke the whole world and why she can’t just demand the immediate return of her eggs.
For the answers to all this and more, read on and click on the video interview to watch the conversation.
WATCH: RHEA SEEHORN DISCUSSES ALL THINGS ‘PLURIBUS’:
DEADLINE: If you had to bottom-line it, what’s the secret sauce for the success of Pluribus?
RHEA SEEHORN: I mean, I’d be lying if I didn’t say Vince Gilligan. That’s the secret sauce of the success of it. But also in particular, I would say first, the macro on that is everybody involved. It’s an incredible crew, department heads, my cast, all the writers, all of the directors and the support of Sony and Apple. It takes a very giant village to do a show like that, enable it, empower it, and get it on the air in the way that Vince envisioned it. So it’s all of that. But I do think some of the secret sauce, as far as it being received so well and engendering such great conversations, is that Vince is writing from a very pure place of wanting to explore humanity and defining happiness and success instead of trying to preach anything in particular.
So it’s really engendered a lot of interpretive comments from people thinking it’s about this or it’s about that, and I think causing some very nuanced conversations instead of the regular binary, “everything is black and white” for once.
DEADLINE: Vince must have a crystal ball, because you’ve said he came up with this show before AI, like ChatGPT, was even a thing really, and even before Covid. So people keep thinking, “Oh, he’s talking about AI. This is about the pandemic.” And I don’t know how he did it, but he somehow tuned into some future information. But there is a really weird relevance in terms of AI in some of this. There’s a conversation where Carol talks to Jeff Hiller’s character, Larry, and she says, “Do you like my books?” And he goes, “Oh we love your books.” She says, “What about the plot turns?” “Oh yes, we love the plot turns.” And it’s exactly like an AI conversation.
SEEHORN: And that they know everything. They have all this conglomeration of all information and all wisdom in one place.
DEADLINE: In a very cheerful, upbeat reflection of whatever you want them to be. What were your thoughts when that landed for you, how incredibly relevant that was, whether by accident or not, and how did you and Vince talk about it?
SEEHORN: I knew that Vince doesn’t write in themes. He’s not trying to speak to a specific theme. I also knew that he’s been mulling over some of these questions about humanity, society, all of the plethora of questions that the show brings up for 10- plus years.
So, believe it or not, I was surprised when we started doing the press junkets and people were bringing up, “Oh, this is a commentary on AI, right?” And I get it now and I know I look like an idiot, but I get so focused on playing the character in the story that she’s in, that I try very hard not to think about how I want it to be interpreted or what is this theme that this is speaking to. I didn’t think about the pandemic. Of course, that got brought up. Of course, there’s a comparison to be made there with isolation. And I’m a very extrovert-introvert, 50-50 person, and so I very much need my alone time, but the pandemic tested that, so be careful what you wish for, right? And I think Carol’s going through that.
I see all of the commentary. I mean, I had one journalist say she thought the entire show was a metaphor for grief and depression. And this idea that it feels like when you’re in that space that you’re down a well and everybody that keeps saying “cheer up” might as well be speaking a foreign language to you. And I was like, “That’s incredible.”
SEEHORN: It’s very smart and very interesting. And Vince is feeling very “yes, and” about everybody’s interpretations, as do I. But while being in it, we didn’t discuss, “How will this be digested?” I think we knew our RAM space was full with making it.
DEADLINE: Yes. You have to be in the moment with your character and not speculate?
SEEHORN: Yes. Carol doesn’t have any time to speculate on what this might mean to other people. She’s not so into that.
DEADLINE: She’s got her whiteboard and she’s figuring out how to save the universe.
SEEHORN: She’s only concerned with what it means to her.
SEEHORN: She tried to save the world, Antonia. Come on. That’s not selfish [laughs].
DEADLINE: I love the pilot episode with Miriam Shor and that dynamic between Carol and Helen and I’m praying to the Season 2 gods that we get some flashbacks of those two together.
SEEHORN: Miriam Shor is a national treasure. I think we all know that. Yes, I too am praying. I have no say and I don’t even go to the writers’ room to whisper anything because that is a smarter group than I. But yes, I hope we see Miriam again. I see her as often as I can in my real life because she’s just an amazing person. And we had just met when we started to play that, and that relationship was very important to us as allies of the LGBTQ community, as well as gals’ gals that really just support each other and wanted to see the other one soar.
And Karolina Wydra is also like that. These are two sisters for life as far as I’m concerned. And that’s the magic, I think that you see in those scenes. The chemistry, the oddball chemistry of Zosia and Carol, and the marriage and deep partnership of Helen and Carol is very much a product of the respect and the love that we have for each other and each other’s work when we get to stage.
DEADLINE: It’s funny, on Emmy nomination day, I talked to Karolina and she described you as sisterly as well. Can you talk about making that connection with her?
SEEHORN: With Karolina, I mean she, like Miriam, is an actor that’s there to play. She does tons of homework. She’s such an incredibly gifted, talented actor and very, very fiercely intelligent with her preparation, but she gets to set and is ready to play, as am I. And by that I mean, it’s not a pre-planned performance. It can’t be shaped until you see what the other person’s doing. And the more you respect the contribution the other person just made and allow yourself to react to that in character, to me that is what looks like chemistry to people because it’s that invisible tether between two actors that are allowing the other person to help define where the scene is going, and it makes you hang on their words. It makes you hang on their actions because she is in real-time shaping how my performance is going to be in that scene. I want her to excel and she wants me to excel. And we rehearse together, we hang out together and support each other. I couldn’t be more thrilled that both she and Miriam are nominated for their phenomenal work.
DEADLINE: It sounds like such a tight-knit group. And you shoot in New Mexico where you shot Better Call Saul. I believe you’re even living in the same house?
SEEHORN: On Better Call Saul, I lived in the same house as Patrick Fabian and Bob Odenkirk for the majority of shooting. Karolina’s got little kids, so I couldn’t make her live with me because I had to sleep in the daytime. So, it wasn’t going to go that well with little kids. But I love her enough to live with her.
DEADLINE: And it’s the same crew too, for the most part?
SEEHORN: Very much the same crew. I think there’s very few differences. And a lot of those people were on Breaking Bad as well.
DEADLINE: That’s such a rare experience to have such a long-term connection with a crew. You always speak so warmly of your crew on this show, and how important they are, and how many real, poignant moments you’ve had with them on set.
SEEHORN: It’s hard to not talk about your own crew and not get teary. I know I’m going to see some of them today, but they are amazing. And yes, it’s a family. What does it mean to have this crew and these department heads and these writers and directors that I’ve had the incredible fortune to work with over and over again? There’s two parts to that, and one part is to get to have a job that has to work at all in this business is the gift, bottom line. But then to get to do work like this, and the kind of writing and the direction and everything that I’ve gotten to do with Vince and his crew and his writers has been incredible.
There’s a lot of people that love Zosia and Carol together, which I love as well and I’m so thrilled about that. But when they say, “I hope that they get back together and stay together”… I’m like, ‘Did you see the finale? I feel like there was a big line crossed with the stealing of the eggs thing. That’s just me. I feel like it’s a big flag.’
But when you add to that, to get to work with the same people over and over again, to have a sort of shorthand that I have with Vince, 10-plus, 11-plus years working together at this point and a crew that I know so well that supports me. And I know people out there, whether you’re an actor, or in other areas, like you as a journalist, to work in an environment where you don’t feel that you have to try to prove why you’re there every day, that there’s a baseline of everyone believing that you are of value, which seems like a pretty low bar but it’s not, it inspires you to take risks, inspires you to be more creative, and that’s what they do.
In addition to that, this crew happens to be some of the best in the world at what they do in every single department, whether it’s props or sound or production design, costume design, makeup, hair, all of it. And so, if I have a second between what I’m doing, to wander over and get to ask Matt Credle, my A camera op, or Eli [Schneider], my dolly grip, or the lighting technicians, to get to learn from these guys, it’s a masterclass every day.
And no matter how great I’m trying to make my performance, if they’re not adding their contribution, it means nothing. They truly celebrate that the best story we can tell is going to be a collaborative storytelling situation, and you feel it and it makes you want to rise to the occasion.
DEADLINE: It sounds like you’re really ready to direct on this show.
SEEHORN: I directed one episode of Better Call Saul, which was fun.
SEEHORN: I would like to direct again. Directing with that kind of support is definitely an amazing thing. There’s no way I could have in Season 1. I don’t know when I will throw my hat in the ring. I always prioritize the performance, because that’s what I was hired to do. I don’t think I would’ve been able to get enough sleep or brush my teeth if I had tried to direct Season 1.
I don’t know. I loved directing when I did it, and I also directed on Cooper’s Bar, a series that I executive produced and I directed some shorts. And I really do love it. And I do love talking to the crew and I love being part of post-production and prep, and every nerdy part that you can find is my jam. But right now, I have to say it takes every cell in my body to navigate Carol in this bizarre world that Vince Gilligan put her in, and I’m having a blast doing that.
DEADLINE: Speaking of Vince’s approach, you’ve said he likes to have lots of angles. And so not only do you need to perfectly replicate the emotional tonal situation multiple times, but you also are doing this for exterior shots, then later doing the same for the interior shot for the same scene. I cannot imagine how you keep all of that straight in your head?
SEEHORN: I’m very protective of Vince when people hear how long we shoot for. He is never indulgent. There is always a reason for the many takes and the many angles. There’s a visual vocabulary that he likes to use that requires a lot of different angles. And so you have to repeat the scene for every time that camera setup has changed. And we’ll do multiple takes also, to find tone because Vince really likes to, as do I, play with a very slippery tone that can shift from comedic to dramatic in the same scene. And we’ve all watched [other] things where you thought, “I don’t think all those people are in the same show, or I don’t think the show knows what it wants to be.” So, he’s fantastic and specific about us playing with, how comedic can this moment be while still being able to be in the same scene as how dark it’s going to get over here, and when does that break? When is that not working anymore? And he lets us explore performance. And scenes can be completely different because of where you put the pauses, or the body language of someone, and he’s looking for the best stories.
But you are right that for one thing, the backlot, that is the cul-de-sac, is the exteriors. And then the interior, some of the interior of that house, Carol’s house is built on the backlot, but not all the way through. So, there is also the first floor and the second floor as a set built on the sound stages. And so sometimes I am literally doing the exterior of a scene until I come through a door, and then in a couple of days doing after I came in the door.
She was just going to die alone on the couch watching Golden Girls, which if you have to die alone on the couch, watching Golden Girls is the way to go.
And how do I keep it straight is I am a prep freak. That’s all I can say. I love script analysis. I love homework. I love all of it. And I just make tedious notes about the possibilities of behavior and reactions. And in those scenes where I’m by myself, there still is a scene partner, and sometimes my scene partner is whoever she just last saw. She’s still thinking about Zosia, or it’s who she’s avoiding. Then other times my scene partner is knowing somewhere in my brain that I am taking the audience down the rabbit hole. And so, I’m trying to bring them into the story. But even when there’s no dialogue, I know Vince wants as many story beats, if not more, than if it was full verbal dialogue the whole time. So I’m going through and deciding, what would she be thinking here? What would she be thinking there? Why would she start to do this activity? Why would she cross over there? Why is she not talking? I personally love that he didn’t just weirdly make my character do monologues when she’s by herself in her house. And he completely assumes the intelligence of the audience, that you will go on that ride with me without having to be told what to think or how to feel.
DEADLINE: 100%. That’s exactly how it feels to watch the show. I think to me, if I had to say the secret sauce, it’s that it makes you feel smart watching it.
SEEHORN: Oh, interesting. Yes. I would say that people have said that to me. They were like, “Yeah, I feel like he thinks I’m smart and I’m part of the unraveling of this story because I’m supposed to think and form conclusions and question things, and it’s great.”
DEADLINE: It gives the viewer agency. It’s everything.
DEADLINE: OK so does Zosia really love Carol or is Carol deluded? What’s your take?
SEEHORN: I don’t know. I do think Carol’s long isolation that she got put in, plus the existential threat that it would last forever, If she didn’t change or decide, “I guess, I’m just going to try to be in a relationship with her,” she was just going to die alone on the couch watching Golden Girls, which if you have to die alone on the couch, watching Golden Girls is the way to go.
SEEHORN: I’m just saying. This existential threat, which is another thing, I think many of us experienced in the pandemic. And I remember a therapist saying to me, “It’s causing so much anxiety because there isn’t an end in sight. We just don’t know when this will be over. It isn’t like, ‘Can you make it 30 more days?'” So, for Carol, I do think it is a voluntary delusion of sorts, but I also think that isolation broke her. And I think Vince and Adam Bernstein that directed the episode, when Zosia comes back and I hug her, I think we do see Carol very vulnerable for one of the first times since her wife’s death.
So, I don’t know if Zosia is being manipulative or has any real feelings, or if there’s a way to disentangle those because they do think this is an act of love, to change me. I’m a little surprised by the number of people that have told me, “I hope Zosia …” There’s a lot of people that love Zosia and Carol together, which I love as well and I’m so thrilled about that. But when they say, “I hope that they get back together and stay together,” I always say, “Do you mean if Zosia becomes a real person and not part of the hive mind?” They’re like, “No, no, no, just as they are.” I’m like, “Did you see the finale? I feel like there was a big line crossed with the stealing of the eggs thing. That’s just me. I feel like it’s a big flag.”
But we had some very interesting late-night conversations with the crew on set. I remember at one point somebody said, “Aren’t all relationships manipulative anyway? Isn’t any flirting? Of course, you want something.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but hopefully you don’t want to meld their brain. I hope that’s not the goal.” I’m sure it’s some people’s goal.
DEADLINE: I mean, considering dating in L.A., it’s possible.
SEEHORN: It’s true. So, I think Carol has real feelings for Zosia, but it is born of a delusion to pretend, and you see it keep peeking through. She knows this is not a person with agency. You love me as much as you love that dog over there. You know what I mean? And you see her freak out when she’s saying, “I love you the same as Manousos.” And when she starts asking about her partner and being jealous, what would be the point of jealousy at that point? She loves everybody. But I don’t know. I think Carol, I mean, something snapped in her, obviously at the end.
DEADLINE: I feel like she could just make them give the eggs back? And although ‘the others’ aren’t meant to lie, Zosia lied by omission.
SEEHORN: Yes. Vince would tell the others all the time, and Karolina in particular, that they are very lawyerly. They do not lie, but they are … You don’t have to say “manipulative”, but extremely specific about how they word things, even when she says she prefers to be a vegetarian. Yes, they prefer it, it’s just not what they’re doing.
SEEHORN: I don’t think I could just demand the eggs back, and I did ask about that, because their imperative is to infect — the coarse way to say it. That’s the argument that Carol keeps having with Zosia. “If you’re saying I have agency and you love me, then don’t do this.” She’s saying, “It’s because I love you that I have to.”
But also, Vince sometimes would talk about it. It’s like parental love. He would say, “Manipulating your child into wearing a coat to go outside. Is that manipulation or is that love, if you know it’s what’s best for them, to get them to eat vegetables or whatever?” And it’s that built into their system that for the others, this is an act of love. And so, if loving people is the greatest thing, then you can’t stop doing that. So, if she thinks stealing my eggs can eventually get my DNA to change me, then she’s never going to stop.
DEADLINE: On Emmy nominations day, we talked a little bit about the atom bomb Carol orders in the Season 1 finale.
DEADLINE: But you did say the immortal words. “I don’t think it’s an ADU for a mother-in-law.”
SEEHORN: I did, which I don’t know why I thought of that when I was talking to you because I was like, “I don’t know what it is, but it’s just this giant crate in the driveway.” And no, I have very few guesses about what he’s going to do with that, but I don’t think it’s a mother-in-law ADU. I don’t. I don’t think she’s renting it out. I don’t know what she’s going to do with the bomb. I really don’t. And the good news was, playing Carol, I didn’t need to know because I actually think she made a rash decision. We’ll see, I’ll get Episode 1 and I’ll be a big fat liar and I’ll find out that apparently, I had a whole plan and wrote it all out on a whiteboard, I don’t know. But I thought in the moment, that Carol is very rash. We’ve seen it. She’s extremely impulsive and rash, and her trying to calm that part of her down didn’t result in anything good. It just resulted in having a fake relationship with somebody that stole my eggs. So, I think she’s so angry and importantly, terrified in that moment that this clock is ticking again, that she asked for the biggest threat that she can think of, but I don’t think she’s really figured out what to do with it. That’s my thought.
DEADLINE: OK. Let’s hope she doesn’t end the world because I’d like this to keep going on…
SEEHORN: Same, same. I really hope she doesn’t end it for six or seven seasons. Or 10, whatever.
Get our Breaking News Alerts and Keep your inbox happy.
Comments On Deadline Hollywood are monitored. So don't go off topic, don't impersonate anyone, and don't get your facts wrong.
Δdocument.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() );